My argument on DG points can be totally separated from LIV. I mean look at my post earlier with the hypothetical top 3s
I am assuming Greg Norman knows the difference between PGA and PGA Tour, though.
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Good. All I ask for in these discussions is for you to fully read my posts and actually respond to the points I bring up (e.g. BK’s career not being well-described by SG, Charles Howell’s SG at Mayakoba).
My claim is not that points are better than SG, just that points are very additive.
Tigers 2019 win was obviously Bigger than CH3 but it’s not hard for me to believe CH3 played better golf than Tiger did that week.
That’s the beauty of strokes gained is it’s great at telling you how good a golfer they are. And filterable: majors only, close major weekends, whatever.
Separating that and deciding on wins in big events being the driving factor brings so much more noise into it.
Hypothetically we could have a horrible course setup at a US Open and 25 golfers go into a playoff and Homa wins a major after a chip in . He would be given more DG points than say if Sam Burns and Rory separate from the pack this week and burnes finishes at -18 1 stroke back with 3rd at -4. Strokes gained takes care of all that so well
Yeah SG is good for some things, but not good for others. You didn’t address the career evaluation problem with SG.
Also, with SG one player can make the cut and the other can miss, but if the first player performs poorly on the weekend their SG can be worse. That’s not ideal for a lot of things. You should go read the methodology, we are “deciding” very little. You get rewarded for beating the players you actually played against, nothing more.
Lot of chatter out there about LIV golf maybe shutting down soon.
Thoughts and prayers to hogtrough
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It would be a very sad day. Nothing has done more for pro golf than the creation of LIV in recent years. It would be a win for bullying and the Old School Powerful Monopoly.
Them shutting down would only be their own doing, come on now.
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Strong disagree. The OWGR mafia style move and ability to bully media/sponsors/TV was a huge effort made by the powerful PGA and it had some effect.
It was always a stretch to pull off such an ambitious move but the PGA made it much harder (which fair to them) but it’s hard to take on a monopoly
Leave Don Rea out of this.
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I think Monahan deserves some credit. Maybe it wasn’t his intention, but by entering into the framework agreement and then slow playing LIV, we’ve managed to get out of this relatively unscathed. (Assuming LIV is actually folding.)
A pretty bad scenario would have been entering into some sort of partnership where Scottie, Rory, etc. would be forced to play in some of these meaningless events.
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I don’t understand why you think those are meaningless while PGA events have meaning
In spite of everything, I enjoy betting on LIV.
I’d be sad to see them fold just because of that… decent betting volume going away.
Also IMO the biggest loser from that would be La Sasso. I understand why he took that road. money+pga tour status is getting more limited and hard to keep, he probably preferred playing on LIV than having to grind multiple seasons to hope having a chance to get his full time Tour Card. But yeah, oof. He’s the big time loser, from a pov of his golf career.
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It’s not just me, everyone seems to agree that LIV events don’t have much meaning. And ultimately it’s up to fans and the general golf ecosystem to decide which events have meaning.
As for why that’s the case, I think it’s simply because the PGA Tour has been around for a long time and has the history and reputation of hosting the most important non-major golf tournaments. It was always going to be very hard for a tour to come out of nowhere and immediately have events that resonate with fans.
But then you add in the fact that LIV just tried to buy their fields by poaching players with absurd sums of money, rather than building a product from the ground up (e.g. trying team golf on the Asian Tour first, or something), and I think for the typical fan they just had a visceral negative reaction to this. Which shouldn’t be surprising. We’ve seen it in a few different settings now (soccer comes to mind), and the reaction is usually very negative to the athletes that sell out for big money.
LIV also tried a lot of things with their format that just didn’t work. Shotguns, music, team golf… I just don’t think fans want that, and it probably contributed to their events seeming unserious. My take from day one has been that, for better or worse, pro golf was probably as good as it could be pre-LIV. I don’t think there is a groundbreaking format out there that will suddenly get the masses glued to their TV for the first round of a golf tournament. Which is what LIV thought they could do.
It’s been an interesting experiment and we’ve learned a bit about what works and what doesn’t. I think the main thing is that players not named Tiger aren’t that important. I honestly don’t think even Rory or Scottie going to LIV would have generated that much more interest. I guess there is a tipping point at some level of top players defecting, but I think the PGA Tour’s competitive product and “infrastructure” turned out to be really important. The other thing we learned or were reminded of is how much turnover there is in pro golf; signing players based on a brief run of good form to 3-4 year contracts was not a good idea.
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Yeah, I have a similar feeling. I’ve gotten used to having LIV being a part of our website. It seems like it’s possible they play the rest of this season out. We’ll see.
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Basically you are just deciding that the Sanderson Farms has meaning and LIV Doral didn’t. It is just a personal hatred with no real backing. Plenty of PGA events have no history and history alone doesn’t give any meaning.
Shotguns and team golf worked at times for me, obviously you don’t like it but again you have to realize you are not the arbiter of meaning. Random PGA events do not have meaning either in that no one really cares about it
Acting like pro golf was at its peak pre LIV is incredibly silly. Pro golf and the PGA tour has changed massively since then, do you think it’s in a much worse spot now?
You aren’t really being serious and letting your hatred carry you away
There is no visceral reaction to FedEx Cup or TGL according to you despite those being obvious sell outs
Yes, I do think the PGA Tour is in a worse spot than it was pre-LIV. That’s my opinion, I’m not saying anyone has to agree with it. I know you seem to think that the PGA Tour has drastically revamped their points race in response to LIV, but the reality is it’s basically the same as it was pre-LIV. So the only other real change is the small-field signature events, which I don’t like.
But it seems to me like the tour’s direction is going to be moving back closer to what we had before LIV, e.g. no limited-field events.
I said in my post that it’s not up to me to decide which events have meaning; it’s up to all fans to decide that.
A new PGA Tour event can have meaning because it is still under the tour’s umbrella, and I think we all have this idea that winning any PGA Tour event has meaning.
I don’t know why you can’t ever take my (or anyone’s) negative opinion of LIV at face value. At some point you’ll have to accept (or not, I guess) that a lot of people simply never liked LIV, for various reasons. And they weren’t all paid “PGA” shills, or victims of a mass propaganda campaign by the PGA Tour.
I didn’t watch a shot of TGL this year and I think it’s silly. I have a lot of respect for Scottie and Spieth just staying out of that. But yeah I’m not as negative towards it because it hasn’t negatively impacted the rest of the ecosystem.
90% of people were essentially victims of a big monopoly company with control of nearly all relevant media just putting all their effort into dropping a new upstart with fresh ideas. Not saying you are, but your reasons seem incredibly weak ( the idea that any event the PGAT creates has meaning is obviously unserious and laughable) and more emotionally based which is what the entire disgusting campaign by PGAT was meant to implant. Remember their attempt to tie LIV to 9/11 survivors: one of the most morally reprehensible moves in sports
Please stop initiating the same debate over and over.
You don’t agree with us, we don’t agree with you. And most importantly you’re not inclined to listen and understand anyone else’s opinion so what’s the point?
I love the message board here and most of the time it’s not that active so whenever I see the notifications blue dot I get excited… until I see it’s in this room and realize I’ll have to read the same shit for the 17749th time.
Nobody is even pissing on LIV. But they tried to take something with money instead of merit and it didn’t work. Like it or not, the PGA Tour has been around for decades. That’s why the Sanderson Farms has more meaning than LIV Doral. Not because it’s a great tournament, but simply because it’s run by an organisation that, while not perfect, has a long history. Simple as that. Can’t come in to drop a trillion and simply expect everybody glorify that new tour. LIV is like the coach’s child that nobody likes being named captain.
Like Matt said, they could have tried to gradually build something sustainable but they skipped steps with money, and some things you can’t buy. Some things you have to deserve and build.
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Thank you for the reminder. I have rehashed the debate with hog ~17749 times and should stop doing that 
. I just can’t help myself. Need to lock myself out of this thread.
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