LIV Golf - Better for All?

This may be a good place to start a discussion pertaining to LIV:

This week’s action was TREMENDOUS. The product/broadcast is quick, constantly updating, engaging, etc. I thoroughly enjoyed LIV Boston’s lack of advertising as well.

The team format added much more intrigue, than the PGA’s individual format only. It seemed as if every shot mattered this week for a number of players for huge $.

Enjoyed LIV Boston as much if not more than the TOUR Championship.

Clearly, LIV Golf is one of the BEST things to ever happen for the player’s/fans of the game. The PGA tour’s response has been of benefit to all the players who chose to stay with tour. LIV’s actions as a business entity, have been to promote the game with players from all nations/religions,demographics etc. Globally, at the moment, they have much more appeal to me than the PGA tour. They are traveling the globe, taking the game to new, foreign markets. At the same time, appealing to a much younger fan base with music, broadcast style, etc.

Unfortunately, American TV/media (mainly but not limited to Golf channel/nbc/cbs) and their partner companies have maintained a Saudi Arabian 9/11 smear campaign against the fund’s managers. US media is claiming that their is a link between 9/11 attacks and Saudi Wealth Fund. I doubt the veracity of anyone associated with LIV playing an EFFECTUAL role in 9/11 horrors/tragedies.

Also, there haven’t been any Golf channel highlights I’ve seen showing anything >10 seconds of actual visual LIV highlights/footage. Crazy really, again such a biased view is an unfortunate reality of an individual’s American cable media access.

There is much more to this discussion. Any other thoughts/idea’s/opinions?

Hope everyone is in good health
ahimsa

The team format still did nothing for me and the players kind of seemed to care but not really.

I can’t fault the PGA Tour for trying to protect their product and what they built. At the end of the day the LIV tour has been bought for a hefty price tag and must be losing money hand over fist right now.

The action this week was great to watch, mostly because I had bet Lahiri to get the job done and be played like an absolute champ. RIP to any value he had.

I don’t really understand what you mean when you say “They are traveling the globe, taking the game to new, foreign markets” - If you think England and the East coast of America are foreign markets I’ve got news for you.

“LIV’s actions as a business entity, have been to promote the game with players from all nations/religions,demographics etc”- All these players just took the cheque to be there. LIV would literally take anyone inside the top 50 right now, it has nothing to do with religions etc. I’m sure it was easier for international players to leave the PGA Tour since they don’t have as much tying them down as American players do.

I think LIV has accelerated changes to the PGA Tour product that have been good. However the amount of money they are spending to do it is almost insulting. It’s like when people sell drugs and they just wildly spend their cash on anything and always overpay.

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my first post wasn’t intended to be comprehensive. Just to add a few points:

“can’t fault the PGA Tour for trying to protect their product and what they built. At the end of the day the LIV tour has been bought for a hefty price tag and must be losing money hand over fist right now.” - amounts of wealth are relative concepts. For a Sovereign Wealth Fund which supposedly generates 1$ billion US daily, cash flow shouldn’t be a problem. Assuming, the purported salaries/costs are correct, from the time DJ holed his putt, until this post is read by you, LIV have probably generated enough cash to cover by far their largest sunk cost: Human capital/wages

Also, how many TPC golf courses and club houses should be built? how many salaries/wages are paid to people who are offering little to the game/tour? how many hundreds of millions of dollars should be allowed to go out the door?

“I don’t really understand what you mean when you say”, “They are traveling the globe, taking the game to new, foreign markets” - If you think England and the East coast of America are foreign markets I’ve got news for you, ““LIV’s actions as a business entity, have been to promote the game with players from all nations/religions,demographics etc”- All these players just took the cheque to be there. LIV would literally take anyone inside the top 50 right now, it has nothing to do with religions etc. I’m sure it was easier for international players to leave the PGA Tour since they don’t have as much tying them down as American players do.”

Fair enough, I meant long term. The team format highlighted many asian players I was unfamiliar with, as well as europeans, africans, south americans, north americans, etc. Greg Norman attempted to create a world tour in the 90’s, WGC golf events were the result. I expect this tour be much closer to his world tour vision.They are going to Thailand, Saudi Arabia, Australia, etc., and American markets which have been golf deprived. Religions may not be as diverse, as ages, skin colors, etc., but there is clearly diversity amongst the players/LIV Broadcast staff.

Most people take a cheque everyday to do something they hate. These players took the money in the same way that most, if not all of us would.
Hypothetically, someone comes to you and says: I know you are working for a company that will fire you/lose status as quickly as you no longer make cuts. I will pay you more than you’ve made in your life, for a term of only 2-5 years (20-50% up front/signing bonus), and not only that every time you work you can win 4x as much as you get for a win now. Most people would take that deal, lolol I know I would.

again these posts are not intended to be comprehensive, only discussion points

As a Aussie golf fan, while I enjoy some PGA Tour events, I have no emotional ties to the tour. This makes LIV Golf a no lose option for golf globally. More parts of the world will see LIV players than will ever see PGA Tour players. LIV Golf also invest heavily in the Asian Tour and the Ladies European Tour. On top of that, LIV’s arrival has resulted in substantial action and significant change in how the PGA Tour operates. Greater stake and collaboration with the DP World Tour, Large prize money increases, elite tournaments complete with the PIP money, a $500k assurance for every tour player and a $5k travel stipend for missed cuts. As well as the financial benefits, pathways have improved from the DPWT to the PGA Tour and from both the Sunshine Tour and Australasian Tours to the DPWT. The Asian tour is now becoming a serious option for players, with the LIV qualifying series, the International Series on the Asian Tour.
The team format will gain momentum as permanent teams and less loopy names arrive for 2023. It certainly adds another point of interest and, in the future, could become a little tribal for supportive fans. It is a big part of the LIV business model in the future with the goal being for teams to be owned and create a revenue source for both LIV Golf and the team owners.
So far, the golf has been good. The courses set up to challenge players from the tee more than most PGA Tour courses. As a fan of good driving, this works for me. I enjoy the pace of the broadcast and the less wasted time between shots. The PGA Tour will always have some special events which are great to watch, but different is good. I watch plenty of DPWT, Asian Tour, LPGA and LET golf and am very happy to be able to add LIV Golf to the list. Its not perfect, but promising. Its different, and deliberately so.
As to the amount of money, I am unaware of drug selling practices and associated spending habits, so all i can say is that it is a great deal of money. From the reading I have done, eventually the big bag of money will not be continued and LIV Golf will need to be more fiscally responsible. That time has not yet arrived as the tour is still very much in its start up and get going stage. The 2023 full season will provide more answers to some of the questions I have, but not all of them. How much OWGR points really matter to LIV players is one that may take more time to play out, for example.
Another is how official, or even relevant, can world golf ranking points be if many of the top 60 golfers aren’t being included for the majority of their events, despite those fields being far stronger than most? That’s possibly best for another discussion though.

I think I’ve mentioned it before but I think the best compromise (for now) is for the big events to invite the Top 12 from the previous season’s individual Order of Merit.

It probably shortchanges LIV a tad but I think this is good enough for now and it ensures that everyone will try their best.

From a betting perspective well I am in favor of more tournaments and watered down fields. What I really want is to be able to pump in those T20/30/40 wagers on weak fields, that’s how you make the money.

As for the course setup in Boston it was disappointingly easy but eventually the players make the tournament and the final hour was absolutely insane. That shotgun start actually made things crazier if you ask me and it definitely added to the late drama.

Oh and I laughed when LIV decided to allow shorts. That was a good one. We’ll see if the Asian Tour follows suit. I’m sure Phil loves it, he gained like +3 SG with the shorts.

Alas, I lost my shirt betting against DJ and the 4 Aces (LOL). I’ll be back next time!

By the way there was no evidence whatsoever that LIV tournaments were exhibitions. Players were actually getting mad at bad shots.

I’m a huge golf fan and I struggle to understand how people are enjoying watching LIV golf. I personally think the format is complete garbage. Will it be good for golf? Yes. Will I give a shit about any of their tournaments going forward? Unlikely… well unless of course I have an outright in contention on the final day.

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What LIV has going for it right now is that it’s unconstrained by normal economic considerations. It’s obviously great to watch a telecast with no commercials. The TOUR Championship on the PGA Tour was noticeably better in the last hour or whatever it was that was commercial-free. I think the easiest way to improve the PGA Tour product would be to somehow reduce or eliminate commercials (I’d be willing to pay for it… but I’m sure it’s not that easy with existing network TV contracts).

I’m looking forward to LIV having to battle through a full year of their events. Right now there is still a novelty to each event, especially since they are still getting a few new names each week. But I think the weakness of LIV’s format will shine through next year; the same guys playing every week (with no cut to boot) will be very boring. The PGA Tour schedule ebbs and flows, and I kind of like that. I think it’s possible that the media and fans are being too reactive to LIV because they’ve launched during the summer / fall when the PGA Tour is pretty sleepy. But the winter events starting with the West Coast swing are really great, and it’s easy to forget that during the summer drudgery.

At the end of the day I don’t think LIV is bringing anything to the table that will make professional golf better for fans. If they wanted to blow the PGA Tour out of the water, they would scrap their stupid gimmicks and just play 72-hole stroke play events with full fields and a cut. But then that would make it really clear what they are doing (dumping a ton of money into an unprofitable venture for unclear reasons). As it stands now they are able to state that their goal is to ‘innovate’ and grow the game (which it might be, I don’t know – but I’m skeptical). I think I saw a report detailing their 2023 schedule (not sure how reliable the source was) and they weren’t playing anywhere that the PGA Tour or Euro Tour doesn’t currently visit on a regular basis.

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I think one way to make LIV more interesting is to make course setups vary wildly from one week to the next

Week 1: Bomber’s paradise
Week 2: Short and easy birdiefest
Week 3: Old-school US Open setup, everyone gets crushed
Week 4: Target golf, claustrophobic course with penalty strokes everywhere
Week 5: Full clown mode, with sucker pins and funnel pins every other hole

One of the big criticisms of the PGA Tour is the cookie cutter course setups. Players who don’t play regularly are playing against a marked deck because PGA Tour course setups tend to prefer specific types of players. This is one reason why players are accused of being robots. If you develop your game in a non-robotic way you shoot higher scores because the course setup favors robots.

I mean when you have people like Jordan Spieth complaining about the consistency of the sand one week because they can’t get every bunker shot within 3 feet you know have a problem.

I wonder if the Saudis had stopped after 9/11 rather than continuing with the casual murdering and dismembering of a member of the American media. Maybe then we’d get some more LIV highlights? Or if SA stopped priding itself on being one of the worlds most premier human rights violators? Or am I just spewing American media talking points? :roll_eyes:

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You are spouting American media talking points

I’m pretty sure Saudi Arabia is guilty on many of these fronts but you really don’t want to go in that direction. If you do there is no country you can live in and no sport you can follow

I just want to make money betting on golf tournaments LOL

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From a practical standpoint, at this point you aren’t going to win anybody over with the Saudis-are-bad argument. So I agree with Daniel in the sense that that is not the direction I personally would take the argument to convince someone that LIV is no good.

OP introduced it into the conversation, not me.

We’re all well aware that critical thinking isn’t your strong suit Daniel.

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Good luck with your future golf betting!

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